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From: dijk~orldaccess.nl
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 16:34:45 GMT
Subject: RE: RE: augmented triad tuning & the jazz sound!

On 3-09-96 15:55 "Barry B. Bean" wrote:

> On Mon, 02 Sep 96 16:05:18 GMT, dijk~orldaccess.nl wrote:
>
> >Of course Toots is not interested in another tuning system. His
> way of improvising
> >is for 40% based on harmonica specific playing. I don't say that
> his playing is not
> >interesting, but his note choice is very much influenced by the
> tuning system of
> >the chromatic harmonica. For me, Toots' best recordings are made
> in the 1950-60
> >period. Recordings like 'Man Bites Harmonica' are great. But, his
> note choice
> >didn't develop very much any more and his fast runs become more
> and more harmonica
> >dependend. Listening to this recording ('Man Bites Harmonica'),
> Toots' old
> >fashioned tone and vibrato are the opposite of the straight-a-head
> bariton sax
> >sound of Pepper Adams.
>
> But isn't that one reason any instrumentalist chooses an instrument?
> For its particular strengths and weaknesses?
I think you have to read my text in context with the subject we were
discussing. I was discussing the advantages and disadvantages of
tuning systems. It was a reply to Wynslow his charts about the
different tuning systems and his conclussion that the original tuning
system of the chromatic harmonica isn't so bad at all. He used Toots'
opinion about the augmented triad system to give his own opinion more
strength.
My opinion is, that the advantages and disadvantages of a certain
tuning system is in direct connection with the way one wants to sound
AND the way he approaches this sound.
In detail: the note choice of a player is in direct connection with
the tone division of the instrument he plays and with his very
personal physical 'talents'.

(I do write this down, KNOWING I HAVE TO TRY THE AUGMENTED TRIAD
SYSTEM OUT FOR SOME YEARS TO KNOW IT FOR SURE!)

When a person with some musical interest, decides to play a certain
instrument, this dicision is NOT based on his physical talents or the
easy to play note-choice he likes so much because he can't be aware
of these thinks at that moment. The choice of an instrument has
nothing to do with a concious charme one has towards the tuning
system.

> You don't hear Pepper
> Adams playing Miles Davis lines on bari, nor vice versa. Indeed,
> doublers can often be distinguished by the fact that their
> improvisations and runs sound similar on all the instruments they
> play as opposed to being particularly suited to the instrument they
> are currently playing.
Sorry, but I can't connect these sentences with the subject we were
discussing. Maybe because of my lack in mastering the english
language. But, I think you didn't read my lines very well. I was
talking about the TONE and VIBRATO of both players and their
difference in sound. I didn't say a word about their difference in
note choice or the limitations of the instruments.
>
> Its interesting that you chose to discuss instrument limitations by
> comparing Toots to a bari sax player.
I did not.

> You must surely know that there
> is substantial discussion among bari sax players about playing the
> bari AS A BARI. indeed, the primary criticism of bari sax great
> Serge
> Chaloff was that he played his bari like an alto, and didn't use the
> idiosyncracies of the bari. Pepper is sometimes criticized for
> playing his bari like an overgrown tenor.
>
Again, I was not comparing Toots Thielemans his note choice with
Pepper Adams'. I was talking about sound.

> The point is that there is a longstanding tradition of emphasizing
> the idiosyncracies of different instruments, and not just their
> differing timbres.
I agree.
> Harmonica layout DOES lend itself to certain
> musical ideas,
I agree.
> but that simply makes those ideas a harp signature.
>
Yes, but is the harp sound interesting because of the harp signature?
A different tuning system simply creates a new harp signature. The
point is that there is a common jazz sound, and there is a
instruments specific sound and a personal sound. One should find a
balance between these variables.
Jimmy Raney is one of my favourite guitar players. Why, because his
playing is based on creating very nice melodies which are non
guitaristic at all but based on creative (theoratical) thinking. His
solos can be played on all melodic instruments, including the
harmonica.

Wim Dijkgraaf
The Netherlands